LYDIA SHERMAN WRITES:

I think women should not expect compliments from men and if they happened to get any, should consider it an enormous privilege. Although I never get compliments from young men, every so often an elderly man will say, “Nice dress” or “Like your hair.” That does not bother me. I know what they are saying deep down: “I wish we had something nice to look at in this old world.” It used to be heart-lifting to see a woman in a pretty dress with an innocent smile. Today women are either drab or trying to show their wares. When we do see something pretty, our compliments are taken as harassment. I say it’s time to go on a compliment strike. Just give out compliments to those who really deserve it. We should be more reserved in our compliments, our smiles. “A few smiles, a few compliments of the navy,” said Jane Austen in Persuasion, and (Captain Wentworth) he’s a lost man! These things were always preludes to something serious. They were also measuring sticks or grades that told people how well they were doing. If women are not doing well, I don’t think they should be complimented. The Proverbs 31 writer said, “her husband praises her in the gates.” These were well-earned praises after a long list of character qualities and accomplishments brought on by those higher qualities of diligence and faithfulness to the home.

I believe we can look to those rigid Victorians for standards in compliments: They were not generous with them. A compliment was something like an award that you gave only when someone was deserving. “She was never one to throw away a compliment” became a byline of many an author of the period.

Lydia adds:

I can attest to the shallow mindlessness of the educated women of today. It is heartbreaking. Although the 1940’s and 50’s had a percentage of silly young women, the norm was to show your sensibility and seriousness enough to attract the right kind of guy: a man who was worthy of a woman’s care and help, who would also care what happened to his wife in their lifelong marriage. To have a successful marriage and raise up good children who would not dishonor the parents, was paramount in the mind of any good woman. My blog statistics show many of the rude comments coming from girls in their dorms in colleges all over the country. I do not know whether to say they are giving their education a bad name, or their educational establishment is creating the environment for critical, angry, envious females, intolerant of any other way of life than the one prescribed to them by their colleges. The two seem to be holding hands in a scary attempt to change the God-given purpose of women. One woman wrote to me, “What a whack-job you are. You should get a serious job. Serving tea and sewing clothes? Do you know what century you are living in? C’mon! Wake up and see the big world out there to experience!” In mentioning this to a working friend of mine who has worked all her life and never married, she answered, “You would not like that big world out there. It is a terrible place and I have to work in it every day.” She is a court reporter and has to listen to the testimonies of broken lives daily, and then comes home and tries to feel normal again.

Laura writes:

You are such a wonderful person. I feel privileged to know you.

Lydia writes:

That’s a nice compliment, Laura.You have never seen me mad.

Laura writes:

Ha!

Oh, well. I’m not on a compliment strike. Not yet.

 Here are more comments about compliments:

Youngfogey writes:

I would like to respond now to Jesse and again to Randy on the post “A Boycott…” 

Jesse and Randy both illustrate my point about men’s wanting to be a hero, to be a “good guy.” I have no doubt that both of them indeed are good guys in many ways. They are, however, misguided into a habit of defending dangerous patterns of white knighting and pedestalization. 

Allow me to lay out the basic framework for how I think about this issue. I am a Christian man. As such, I believe we have obligations to God to treat all people with a certain level of decency. Were this not the case, I would be Roissy. 

I am also a Christian man who believes feminism is a philosophy that seeks as its ultimate end the destruction of the masculine and, if necessary, men. I believe that feminism, as one expression of liberalism, has become so pervasive that most young women now assume it as a matter of course. I believe that having imbibed so deeply in this anti-man, anti-life philosophy, most women today are the enemies of men and children. 

As a Christian, I want to love my enemies. In general, complimenting or otherwise praising the average woman is fundamentally unloving because by doing so we encourage her folly. Praising and complimenting most women, or women in general, may seem kind but is actually quite unloving. 

Chivalry may have worked as a social code at a time when men owed women support, provision and protection in return for their faithfulness, chastity and submission. Today, however, the chivalric impulse in men is manipulated by many women to gain for themselves the goods of protection and provision without keeping up their end of the bargain. When men like Randy and Jesse argue that men should continue to behave chivalrously in spite of women’s behavior, they are encouraging men to fall victim to this kind of manipulation which, ultimately, damages both men and women. 

On a more immediate and personal level, it should be noted that for any man who hopes to be chosen by a modern woman for a relationship, complimenting her is the fast-track to “Let’s-Just-Be-Friendsville.” She will choose the more taciturn, less vocally appreciative man much more often than the nice-guy compliment machine. This point is not wholly unrelated to the larger cultural context. 

Finally, Mrs. Wood, you wrote about me that : 

“You seem to be saying that men are unable to counter the cultural climate, while women should easily be capable of doing what is right.” 

I do not think that women could counter the cultural climate easily, but I do think they could do so more easily than men. One reason is because in order to challenge the cultural status quo with regard to women’s conduct etc. men would have to surrender the notion of chivalry. This conversation makes it clear we are a long way from that. Women, on the other hand, have more opportunity to strike a blow against feminism simply because as women they have greater social power within the feminist system.

Laura writes:

I stand by Lydia’s position. In a climate of vanity and self-esteem, compliment almost never.

This does not, however, apply to a loving marriage in which trust has been established or a friendship of long standing. I don’t know of a single happy marriage in which the spouses do not compliment each other. [See Kidist’s comments below on compliments in the right spirit as the currency of kindness. In a narcissistic culture, compliments can lose their value and I think that is what Lydia is saying, but life without compliments is unthinkable.]

I do not think that Jesse (or Randy) was saying there should be no standards for women, but that men should act honorably. A Christian has the duty to remain celibate or to create a family, to raise children who know and love God, and to love his wife. Sometimes love calls for sparing praise. To say love is unconditional is not to say it is uncritical. But a pledge to never compliment women – a daughter, a wife, a mother, a friend – no matter what their actions or to treat any one woman as if she were every woman is to harden the heart against all affection. I cannot see how that is different from feminism, which has made women see in every individual man the shadow of every evil patriarch or wife abuser.

While I agree with Jesse that men must act honorably and protect women, that does not mean they should treat women like children who are not morally culpable for their actions. Every woman has the duty to not only disavow feminism – in words and deeds – but to show good will toward men as a whole. It is not enough to simply say, “Oh, I’m not a feminist.” Women must actively repudiate feminism, demolish its myths, end the public disparagement of masculinity. A failure to do this, to speak out and take a stand rather than hide behind sham neutrality, is a form of betrayal to their husbands, friends, sons, fathers, and brothers. Tell the women you know, this is the condition on which your affection and approval stands. They are either with you or against you. Let them know; don’t confuse them with simmering rage that they cannot decipher or understand.

As you survey the damage of feminism and the betrayals of women, bear in mind two things. One, feminism has been supported, through countless laws, regulations, hiring decisions, words, and private actions, by men. Two, feminism has ruined or damaged the lives of women. Behind the female bravado you see, there is pain, loneliness, remorse, and confusion. There is also malice, evil, vanity and selfishness. But women have gained only one thing for all this: money. They have lost the things that mean the most and millions of women live with that buried realization.

David writes:

Before attempting to clarify my position, I should start by admitting that I wrote the final paragraph of my last comment with a great deal of bitterness, resentment, and anger. You see, I really am fed up with what I will continue to call the “misandrist mentality”: the belief that women are superior to men, and the belief that men are useless at best and dangerous at worst. Randy’s post seemed to me a perfect expression of this misandrist mentality, and frankly it set me off. So I must admit, with embarrassment, that I wrote my final paragraph in anger. Accordingly, it is difficult to stand by it now.

For the record, what I was proposing is exactly what Youngfogey articulated with much greater clarity in his own comments. He said, “We men should make withholding praise from women our default mode… The idea isn’t that we should never praise women, but that we should be inclined not to do so unless they demonstrate some conduct or character we want to encourage.” This is what I was trying to say myself. However, it seems to me we should apply this rule to all of our relationships, no doubt with a healthy degree of liberality, and so the point becomes moot.

Certainly I agree with you, Jesse, when you say “it is the right of women to receive certain benefits and protections and consideration from men.” I was not trying to argue that women should be deprived of these benefits or protections, but I am tired of the lack of esteem women show men generally as well as the excessive adulation men show women. It was out of bitterness and frustration that I wrote the final paragraph which has stirred such a discussion, and as I said, I would not really be willing to stand by it now. I acknowledge this was a poor choice on my part and I am embarrassed by my behavior.

Randy, I never painted you as a feminist or socialist apologist, so it seems whatever profile you succeeded in creating of me must be false. I am willing to accept that you were speaking with excess so as to highlight your love and appreciation for your wife, which is beautiful in its own way. However, it was difficult for me to see that when I first read your post because many of the things you said which could be construed as more offensive are spoken by men with sincerity all the time. It didn’t seem hard to believe that one more man was painting us all as buffoons who would be incapable of married life without the patient, doting assistance of our female trainers (i.e., wives). So I am sorry that I misunderstood you, but I hope you can understand where I’m coming from. And obviously I wasn’t the only one who took exception at your post.

Karen I. writes:

I know of more than one relationship that has been severely harmed by the man’s use of pornography. It is usually repeated use of porn despite the women’s objections to it. I am all for the boycott on compliments unless women deserve it, but as long as the men withholding the compliments are not at the same time showing their attention to less worthy women, including those in porn sites, etc. Far too many men want it both ways. They want a good, sweet wife and trash on the side. Withholding compliments can be a way to control someone and it can become a form of passive aggressiveness. As a policy, it is unkind. As most parents know, even children do best with positive reinforcement. 

I think the way men should use praise with women is to compliment them sincerely when they are clearly taking steps to improve or please him in an area that matters to him. Don’t wait for the woman to become “perfect” as there are many men out there (often with questionable motives) who will compliment a woman quite easily. A woman feeling neglected or unappreciated by her significant other can be swayed by such compliments and I am sure more than one man out there broke and sleeping alone after a divorce wishes he had been nicer. I don’t think very many wish they had withheld compliments more often. 

A man who makes it a policy to withhold compliments to women is asking for problems. Women will resent it. They may appear to try to cooperate on the surface, but they will be angry underneath. Women who are in that frame of mind can be quite nasty. The wife I know who cooked her husband a lovely dinner night after night without compliments comes to mind. One day, she cooked yet another dinner, then served it with a smile after she spit on it. I don’t think what she did was right, but I share the story to show men how women can appear to cooperate and yet be filled with resentment. The resentment can come out in ways men don’t even suspect. It is far better to be kind and expect kindness in return. If that does not happen, move on to someone you don’t have to play games with.

Randy B. writes:

Sometimes, when the opportunity arises, I offer compliments out of spite: Yes, Spite. I travel a couple times a year to San AndCrisco on business, and without fail I end up seeing two women locked in “love’s embrace.” If for no other reason than to be a thorn in the movement, I will single one out, no matter how homely and lost for love in the eye of man, and offer a compliment on hair (especially if shaved), or flowered hippy burka, or face staples/piercings, unshaved legs, et al. So I would like to argue against the men who seemingly want to “put women in their place,” and suggest that there are chances to battle the feminists on our terms, without having to become the male version of a feminist.

Randy adds:

Thanks for the consideration, David. I would find it a challenge to be offended by something someone I don’t know posted on the Internet, unless it possessed the potential for financial or physical damage to me or a loved one. I actually respect your ability to come back and reassess your position and statements.

After reading the collection of thoughts, I see we clearly approach the topic from different angles and experiences, but suspect we would be back-to-back in the fight. Yes, my posting might have been a bit gushy, and I tend (for the sake of ease) to make general statements. The primary focus of my post was to address functional women, not the miscreants that you, Youngfogey and Sampson address. That is not a world in which I live or traffic. I have been fortunate to have been married to only one woman, and for close to 26 years. I did not raise my two daughters to be like the dumpster divers of which I have almost no knowledge, aside from overhearing about things like Girls Gone Wild. Since we have not had TV in our home for 9 years my children (young adults) are literate, functional, and don’t get their morality from the twisted sisters; Oprah and Ellen (sp). My current life’s experience with young girls is derived from my daughters and their friends, and that alone does not jive for me with the dark side that is being discussed.

I enjoy the rigor of debate this topic has stirred up, and hope it outlives the confusion upon which it caught fire.

John E. writes:

Having followed the conversation at the “Men are Slow to Ripen” post, and then the follow-up posts, I realize that I have a difficulty understanding the complaints raised by men and women against each other without an understanding of something working as an outside force, apart from men and women, to create enmity between the sexes where there was meant to be accord. There does not seem to be a battle of the sexes, but a battle against the sexes, a battle in which an unfortunate number of both men and women have enlisted in the enemy forces, whether fully or partially, whether unwittingly or with full knowledge. I don’t know how else to describe the irrationality of blaming an entire sex for the faults displayed by a few of its members which happens so often by both men and women. It shows a lack of hope, and a step on the path toward total despair, in which evil must delight.

Laura writes:

If Satan is real, and if he has two nickels to rub together, intellectually speaking, the war between the sexes makes perfect sense. Almost too much sense. If he is not real, this is all a strange spectacle and God does not love.

 In Milton’s Paradise Lost, the infernal adversary speaks while observing Adam and Eve before the fall:

     … Aside the Devil turned
For envy, yet with jealous leer maligned
Eyed them askance, and to himself thus’ plained;
 ‘Sight hateful, Sight tormenting! Thus these two,
Imparadised in one another’s arms,
The happier Eden, shall enjoy their fill
Of bliss on bliss, while I to Hell am thrust
Where neither joy or love, but fierce desire,
Among our other torments are not the least,
Still unfulfilled, with pain of longing pines!’

                                                (Paradise Lost, Book IV, 502-511)

Lydia adds:

I do agree that the test of a gentleman is his honorable speech and actions. Holding the door for a female does not say whether or not she is a real lady or behaves properly. It shows he is a gentleman. I will always remember some southern military officers attending an event in one of the northern states where I was living. Every single time they met a woman on an elevator, no matter what her age, they said, “Afternoon, Ma’am” or “Morning Ma’am.” Other phrases, considered compliments were “How are you today?” However, they were formal enough not to compliment someone’s beauty or dress. They were just polite. I am not saying men should not be polite to women. We may be discussing different definitions of the word compliments.

As for children, I do not think praise or compliments work well when raising children. If they are given praise that is not earned, they can develop a higher opinion of themselves than they ought. I do think there is a difference between a compliment and praise.

Kidist Paulos Asrat writes:

I think compliments are a form of kindness. The genuine ones are often easily distinguishable from the manipulative ones. But, people know when they’ve been overlooked for a compliment. The modest and good ones will not make a fuss, but they will be disappointed.

I agree that effusive compliments to strangers is odd, and potentially dangerous. But, no one can really measure the amount (and effect) of a compliment. It might get into someone’s head – even the sincere kind. And yet again, it will likely be appreciated.

Even a clumsy compliment is endearing. But I think compliments are learned, they don’t really come naturally. Without practice, people get stale or just simply clamp up.

If one gives genuine compliments, others learn to do the same. Kindness spreads around little by little. I think it is far harder to be kind than to be cruel. Compliments are actually a courageous act. You may even get rejected for them (with cruelty, that is a given, and probably the purpose!).

Good compliments make good people all around – the giver, the receiver and the “spectator.”

My Roget’s Thesaurus lists “courteous” and “praise” under “compliment.”

(P.S., I just read Lydia’s line on politeness. We seem to be having similar ideas. But regarding children, I think it is fine to compliment children. I think a wise person would know, or learn, how to. I’ve met adults who talk about never receiving compliments from their mothers as though they had never received love. So compliments seem to me a form of love, too).

Laura writes:

As I said, compliments can lose their value in a culture of vanity and artificial self esteem. When I said, “Compliment almost never,” I was referring to Youngfogey’s comments on the narcissism of today.

But compliments are the nectar of human interaction when they are given and received in the right spirit. Kidist is right about the courage it takes to give a compliment and, I would add, the courage it takes to receive one.

Jesse writes:

David, I am glad to hear you agree that women deserve to receive benefits and protection from men; I count that as a pleasant surprise. 

In response to Youngfogey, I do certainly like the idea of being heroic, of being a good guy. You should understand however that what is important to me is that I be heroic and a good guy according to my own standards, according to my own ethical rules. In being chivalrous or advocating that men should indeed place the needs of their wife above their own selfish considerations I am trying to live up to my own ethical standards of how a man should treat a woman. I am not trying to gain approval from society, I am not trying to be liked by feminists, and I am not trying to please any particular woman in any particular situation. All I am doing when advocating chivalry is promoting a value system that I believe helps society to function better and helps to form successful relationships between men and women. 

Being chivalrous does make men heroic; it does help them to become a “good guy”; whether women approve of chivalry or not is beyond the point. Chivalry is its own virtue regardless of whatever pathology may be afflicting a culture at any particular time. 

Chivalry does not mean giving women what they want, it doesn’t mean doing whatever a woman says, it means providing a woman benefits that allows her to fulfill her feminine sex role effectively and in a state of security and safety.

Samson writes in response to earlier comment by Randy:

Perhaps one more comment for now, directed at Randy. Like David, my aim is not to make enemies where we probably share a common cause. I’d much rather be friends. But when I read:

That is not a world in which I live or traffic. I have been fortunate to have been married to only one woman, and for close to 26 years. I did not raise my two daughters to be like the dumpster divers of which I have almost no knowledge, aside from overhearing about things like Girls Gone Wild.

The fact is – I knew that was the case just from the things you said. It’s been said, and worth saying again, that if you were born before 1970, you just have no idea what young women are like today. I am sure you think you do, but you don’t… you don’t. The gulf between a young woman today and her grandmother is almost unfathomable.

Youngfogey writes:

I do not have time now to respond to all the posts on the topics we have been discussing.

 I will say this. Laura says:

“Let them know; don’t confuse them with simmering rage that they cannot decipher or understand.”

This seems like wisdom to me.

Mabel LeBeau writes:

From very early, I remember Mother used to say if we couldn’t think of something nice to say then we were to say nothing at all, many years before all the awful things in voluminous amounts that she railed on about my father at more than 100 decibels any time of day or night. Poor unhappy folks, egging each other on in the audience of their dozen kids. After a bit I used to think the yelling and carrying on had something to do with a specific ethnic group or a dynamic between passive-aggressives and the vitriolics. In any case, when one is busy berating or defending, there’s not much chance to say anything else. Sometimes, body language has to speak when there’s no verbals

In any case, later when I had children, I bent over backwards to ensure my kids heard positive messages from me. I couldn’t control the interaction between my spouse, but as their mother, I made sure that they heard self-affirming messages. It was always true, whatever was said. Sometimes I had to examine my message, modulate it so that it did not seem exaggerated, patronizing nor gratuitous. Usually, it wasn’t too much work to come up with something, but I did have to choose well to avoid artifice or manipulative interpretation.

In any case fast-forward to the ‘mental attack’ my daughter experienced in which part of the recovery required attempting to change a deprecatory internal message. In an exercise of recounting all the positive things that she had heard before, it was a bit of joy in the bleakness to hear her plumbing the depths to recall the sweet words of seemingly bygone days. Phrases only a memory away. “Yes, dear, remember your horseback riding instructor said when you were learning to ride that you had the natural rhythm of a dancer.” “Yes, dear, remember your kindergarten teacher said that while others were reciting their alphabet you were making up stories for them?”

Honest and sincere communication involves a whole truth, as well as charity. 

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