Illustration for Pride and Prejudice; Anna and Elena Balbusso

GUILAIN writes:

I agree with the following statement you wrote:

Men and women are too interdependent for one to fall without the other.

That is so true that most men still intensely desire women. If men had not fallen with women, they would not seek their approbation; they would realize it has no value.

Some time ago, when I roamed the manosphere, I was struck by the fact that many criticisms of modern women could be directed at modern men as well. Among the men writing or commenting on those “red pill” websites, no one seemed to notice this fact. 

For example, it is often said that women are attracted to “bad boys” and despise sensitive, intelligent, well-mannered men. Well that’s quite true, but what about men? Aren’t they attracted to “bad girls”? Well, I have to admit that in middle and high school and even later, all the girls I desired were rather insensitive, unreflective and sometimes even mean. When I was in grade twelve, I discovered that one of the rare sensitive and thoughtful girl in my school was attracted to me, and guess what? I had not the least desire for her. So, unless I am an exception, it seems that, not only women desire “bad boys,” but also men desire “bad girls.”

Why is that so?

I have a theory. In our times of radical individualism, the isolated individual feels miserable, even if he will not admit it. When he has a family it is small and dispersed all over the country. He has a few friends with whom he constantly competes in an effort to reach individual success. He does not belong to a community of any kind. He does not share his blood with anyone, he has no ancestors, no past, and to be honest no future. He has no solid values to rely on and worst of all he is godless.

Wait, is he? Well, he definitely doesn’t know and doesn’t want to know God, but no man can live without either God or idols. So the modern man is constantly bowing down before various idols and fake gods.

Life is unbearable without the feeling that somehow we are connected to metaphysical superiority. Men and women, forgetting that they are made of dust and will return to dust, seek metaphysical superiority in one another.

The godless woman cannot be satisfied with a mere man; she needs a godlike man, to compensate for her lack of connection with the Divine. She can only desire a man who seems metaphysically superior to her. To reach such a status, a man must exhibit some “divine attributes.” One of them is mastery. A man who is insensitive and unreflective gives the illusion of mastery. Apparently, he has total control over his emotions and his thoughts and he speaks assertively. Well, the truth is that he has not much in the way of emotions and thoughts to control and his confidence when talking is quite similar to the assertiveness of a screaming baboon. Nevertheless, such a man will undoubtedly encounter great success with many women, as they will be under the illusion that he is a superior being.

For the same reason sensitiveness and thoughtfulness in a woman reduce her sex appeal. These qualities make her appear weak, and… human. The godless individual resents nothing more than humanity. He cannot desire someone who reminds him constantly of his own mortality. A nonchalant demeanor (originating in vacuousness) is much more desirable to him.

My belief is that relations between the sexes are totally dysfunctional because they have become the theater of an idols’ cult. Passion is a religious experience whose intensity grows as apostasy becomes complete. Men and women are desperately looking for a savior in each other. They can only be extremely disappointed when facing reality.

Only by firmly turning ourselves toward God again can we restore healthy relationships between the sexes.

— Comments —

Daniel writes:

It’s not the sweet, submissive women who are divorcing them in droves.

Paul C. writes:

Guilain’s opinion is a product of post-fifties’ culture or worse, post eighties’ culture.  Maybe there is some truth about that culture.  But the opinion does not hold with my culture of the fifties and sixties.  Women were ideally virgins, although we knew and know it is unrealistic to require it.  We knew what a “bad girl” was, we did not value them.  Bad girls were females who would “put out” with many boys.  They were rare and not valued.

Times have changed, but I will bet young men still think about the same way.

The bad boy idea is also without merit for most women, who in fact want a sensitive, smart man who is willing to provide for them and to stand up for them should a violent situation arise.  That is not a description of a bad boy, which was well-portrayed by Marlon Brando in The Wild One.  Brando’s character was repulsive, but Hollywood had to devise a nice ending to make the movie profitable, so they made him smile at the very end.  Thank goodness Hollywood did not change the ending of Tennessee Williams’ intriguing sub-themed portrayal of an unrepentant bad boy, again Marlon Brando, in A Streetcar Named Desire.  The wife of Brando’s character left him in the play and the movie.  Williams said bad boys are not to be desired.

Writers such as Williams have seen the dirty side of life.  And they know the difference between good and bad.

 Laura writes:

I don’t think Guilain means “bad” in the sense of “promiscuous.” I think he means exciting and dominant. So a “bad girl” would be one who is confident, strong-willed and aggressive in a feminist kind of way.

Mary writes:

Back in the 80s I saw a revival of “A Streetcar Named Desire” which was true to the original play as written by Tennessee Williams. It was very different from the Hollywood movie produced in the 50s. The play is really about Blanche, not Stanley (Williams had a mentally ill sister who had to be committed). Williams’s play was, in a word, prophetic, touching on things that were tittilating then but are commonplace now. Blanche has an affair with one of her teenage students and is fired; her marriage was to a gay man who she catches in the act and who ends up committing suicide; etc. Stella and Stanley’s marriage is portrayed as very lustful and she does not leave Stanley at the end of the play). This stuff was cleaned up for the final cut of the movie. At that time Hollywood still required moral justice so Stella had to leave Stanley at the end of the movie, not so in the original play as written by Williams, who perhaps unintentionally manipulates his audience. It is works like this which seem to portend the clear decline of moral structure in the sixties.

While I wouldn’t say this play was intentionally anti-marriage there isn’t a healthy marriage in sight. Williams was a homosexual and had a very sad life. Just to set the record straight.

Guilain writes:

I’m wondering what is the basis for Daniel’s assertion?

It is not possible to verify empirically that modern young men are attracted to sweet submissive women because there are no such women nowadays. I mean, statistically they are non-existent. I think Daniel will agree on this point.

Personally, among the young women I’ve met, there is only one that I would describe as “sweet and submissive.” We were twenty years old when we met on the campus of an engineering school. She had grown up without TV, she wanted to be a housewife, and she practiced embroidery. She had a well-proportioned body with long legs. Her skin was the nightmare of the cosmetic industry: it was pale and perfectly smooth. And her smile was cute. As far as I know she was not the object of much desire from male students, including members of the Christian community. I’ve tried to understand why nobody (including myself) desired this young woman, despite her fine appearance and her outstanding character.

I’ve concluded that conformity is a sine qua non of desire. A woman cannot be desired unless she is in conformity with the social standards and conventions of her time. That explains why male desire can be directed at fundamentally different objects depending on the historical period. It would be a fascinating experiment if we could make a young woman, who had great success during Paul C.’s youth, travel through time. We would bring her to a 2015 campus. I bet she would trigger very little sexual attraction, maybe none at all. That’s what happened with my young female friend. She was like a woman from the past, a survivor. She offered me a time travel toward earlier times.

In 2015, being “sweet and submissive” is antithetical to being in conformity. That’s why I doubt that modern men would be attracted to “sweet and submissive” women if ever they existed. A few exceptions exist though.

Mary writes:

I like this insightful comment of Guilain’s in particular: “My belief is that relations between the sexes are totally dysfunctional because they have become the theater of an idols’ cult. Passion is a religious experience whose intensity grows as apostasy becomes complete. Men and women are desperately looking for a savior in each other. They can only be extremely disappointed when facing reality.”

And in our disappointment we flit from one relationship to another, searching for immediate gratification, leaving chaos in our wakes. Separation from God always leads to destruction.

I also like these comments from Laura to Daniel: “This not a battle of the sexes, but a battle of good and evil in which both the sexes are enlisted. There is nothing the devil hates more than sexual differentiation. From it comes life and new recruits for the good angels. Daniel, you are not owed a wife or a family. You are only owed this opportunity to use the grace God has given you without your ever meriting it to defend justice and social order even if it means personal unhappiness. I hope you will continue to show your hand and speak up. I hope you will have compassion on the women who are misled and help them understand. You just might find a good wife among those sinners someday. Don’t give in to temptations to despair or discouragement. You are taking part in a beautiful adventure.”

One can be morally strong and remain compassionate; firm in one’s beliefs but also charitable. One can choose one’s words wisely, hold one’s tongue, speak the truth gently when asked to; be open-hearted and still holy. I hope Daniel’s enlisting God’s help through prayer, for he wants a good woman and all goodness is from Him.

Laura writes:

Thank you for your comments.

In response to Guilain’s points about the exceptionally gentle woman he met at engineering school:

Sweetness and submissiveness are, like other human traits, susceptible to excess. I wonder if she didn’t seem immature and too dependent. I agree with Guilain that men desire the women of their time, but I think confident femininity is attractive at all times and men in every age are not drawn to those who seem “needy” and incapable of helping them in the raw business of life.  All things in moderation. The same is true of women in their choice of men.

It is important for a woman who has grown up in the counterculture, without TV and such things, to project strength and competence as well. But even then she may be fighting against the idolatry Guilain mentions, which I think is very real.

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